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Well it didnt take long for the Democraps to call their lawyers

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Dano

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Radio,

As an Iowa boy I am offended by your comments concerning the Republican administration prior to FDR. I can assure you, President Hoover (an Iowan) had nothing to do with the creation of the depression. It simply happened on his watch, it would of made no difference which party held the Whitehouse at the time. It still would have happened.

I also believe some of your FDR statements are grossly incorrect.

You said:
"It was his [FDR's] administration that gave the country the Boulder Dam, Social security, the interstate roadway system and all the jobs that went along with these projects for us, the average guys out there."

1. The Boulder Dam - Started by Hoover, not FDR.

2. Social Security - Correct, started by FDR.

3. Interstate Highway - Created by Eisenhower and modeled after the German Autobahn, definitely not created by FDR.

4. Putting people back to work - FDR's WPA and CCC programs only helped a VERY SMALL FRACTION of the unemployed, the programs were simply too small and had too little effect on the depression.

THE job creation program that brought us out of the depression was World War II. I hate to think we should be thanking Hitler and Hirohito for those jobs. Many Americans had to die for those jobs while at the sametime defending our liberties. We owe the WWII generation for everything we enjoy today.

Radio, you've really got to broaden your horizons. Try reading something other than liberal propaganda and revisionist history. Try balancing it with reality.



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A line should be drawn between [the government] and [ourselves] clearly establishing our rights. We either assert our rights, or submit and become tame and abject slaves...
-George Washington, 1765
 

DABTL

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Dano: I know things are slow getting to Iowa but you will be pleased to know the 'Boulder Dam' had a name change a few decades back to 'Hoover Dam' in honor of the great engineer on whose watch it began. Hoove also oversaw American relief efforts in the 1920's to Russia and did a magnificent job. I have visited his birthplace in Iowa. I forget the name of the town in which it is located. Remind me.

Is it snowing yet?
 

Radio-op

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Bill,
Thanks for your indirect support. I love a good exchange of ideas and opinions. What I don't like is intolerance of other opinions.
What I read is a constant berating of liberals and democrats. But we do represent a full 50% of the population (that is if anyone who voted for Mr. Gore falls into this catagory) and we do have the right to live here too. I suppose I represent an EXTREMELY small percentage of people out there who are liberal, democrats who own multiple guns, have some involvment with the military (fly airplanes). I must say I feel like a closet homosexual (which I am not, and I cannot say I like what they do) around gun reflectors. It doesn't make me want to say, gee, I didn't vote for Bush! All I ever hear is democrat/commie/liberal crap. When you guys out there send the vitriolic posts to the various reflectors directed at the above listed "types", please think about those of us out there, although small in population based on what I have been reading that take great offense to what you say. Now most of those being offended may not speak up, but I am. And I do realize that much of what is being vented is to a group of like thinking individuals who are looking for mutual support through numbers. But again, remember there are others out here who do not like being grouped with communists, which we are NOT. I will stand up for freedom and rights along with anyone else when called. But I don't have to like Bush/Cheney. That's my right, and let me have it.
Thanks again Bill for welcoming me.
 

Benjamin

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Gentlemen, I do not advocate killing lawyers because of their vocation, because of what some lawyers have done, or any other reason.

I threw it in because the thread was about the attempt of lawyers to subvert the electoral process.

Thank you for enlightening me about the exact circumstances of the quote. I was not aware of that.

Ben
 

Radio-op

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Dano,
I didn't mean to forget responding to your post on the highways, but if memory serves me right, way back in the late fifties and early sixties, most of the interstates were there for quite some time. I don't think they were just built by Ike. At least the concrete didn't look too fresh to me. But I might be wrong? Bill what do you say, do you remember anything about this?
 

DABTL

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It is called the Eisenhower Interstate System for a reason. Ike pushed it through in the 1955 Congress I believe. He had seen the German Autobahn and knew its strategic importance. In time of war the Interstate System can be closed to civilian traffic if needed by the military. It was built from defense funds. Good on Ike.

I traveled in Iowa before the Interstate and it was and is quite beautiful. Dano and I have hung out in some of the more beautiful areas of that fine state.

As a matter of fact I liked Iowa so well and it is so pretty that if they will just put a price on it, Texas might just buy it for recreational property for Texas Parks and Wildlife.
 

DABTL

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I am not certain Benjamin that lawyers would be the first to subvert the legal system or the electorial system. Election laws are fairly well known and not much can be done to change an election other than ballot challenges. Remember, Bush got the advantage of the 19,000 double marked ballots. You can bet lawyers looked closely at those ballots before they were discarded. But it works both ways.

Have patience and let the system work.

For those idiots in the streets, let the sytem work before you wear yourselves out shouting.

Originally posted by Benjamin:
Gentlemen, I do not advocate killing lawyers because of their vocation, because of what some lawyers have done, or any other reason.

I threw it in because the thread was about the attempt of lawyers to subvert the electoral process.

Thank you for enlightening me about the exact circumstances of the quote. I was not aware of that.

Ben
 

Dano

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Bill,

The town is West Branch, IA. It has one of our Nation's most informative Presidential Libraries. Hoover was truely a Great Humanitarian, Sportsman and a Brilliant Engineer. Had he not been elected at the wrong time, the rest of the nation would have seen him in the same light.

Radio,

You ask why some on this board make the jump from Socialism to Communism. It is because both are closely related. Closer than most would admit.

For example, Webster's Unabridged Dictionary defines socialism as;

"In Communist doctrine, the stage of society coming between the capitalist stage, in which private ownership of the means of production and distribution has been eliminated, as in the Soviet Union, and the production of goods is sufficient to permit realization of the slogan "from each according to his ability, to each according to his work.""

I hope this helps you realize why many of us who love liberty are so concerned when we see this great nation falling into socialism.



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A line should be drawn between [the government] and [ourselves] clearly establishing our rights. We either assert our rights, or submit and become tame and abject slaves...
-George Washington, 1765
 

DABTL

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Dano: Thanks. I could not recall it for anything. It is not alzheimers, I think it is sometimers, cause sometimes I cannot remember. Great library, I remember that.

Radio: I forgot to tell you that Dano is a little to the right of Attila the Hun. A good guy none the less. He went to work in the local election for pro-gun candidates. You will get to know him also.
 

Mike in GA

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Dano-
So, the operative word in National Socialist German Worker's Party ( NAZI for short...) would be.....Socialist?

Or is it the other words that defined this political party?

Let's see, full employment, social works projects, "educational improvements", and taking from the rich to give to the poor - yup!

Golly, I think they even had gun control!

History only repeats when you forget.
 

Radio-op

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Boys,
With my reference to the interstates, I did not make a proper reference. I should have said highway system. The original "interstates" were the concrete paved US Highways. Sorry for the incorrect use of wording. However, if you remember from your 3 Stooges days, those guys were driving all around the country on nicely paved US Highways, usually with Curly in the back seat. I suppose I should stand corrected on Boulder Dam. It was started I believe in 1931, but the project expanded vs. eliminated through the early to mid 1930's which developed many needed jobs. If this is socialism, then we need to redefine the word. I call it relief for people in a very difficult situation. If we ever see 25 percent unemployment again, I think a lot of people who are against "socialism" will change their tune.
Sorry for the quick jump to conclusions, but I just couldn't type it out fast enough and should have proof read some of my wording.
 

chet

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Thought I might take a stab a this one.
Radio-I'm having trouble understanding your views. You say you're a "liberal Democratic type except when it comes to financial management issues" and then you go on to praise the virtues of a government controlled market. It doesn't sound like you have thought out your view points very well at all. I'm not trying to personally attack you but, at least politically, you have made some lengthy stretches with the truth.
Here's some thoughts: Do you think the Democratic party is going to guarantee your right to keep and bear arms?
What does "liberal Democrat" mean to you?
Does the Democratic party qualify freedom by saying some people in some categories should have more than others? I'm willing to listen to your views but you gotta at least try to be consistent.
Chet

Chet
 

chet

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Thought I might take a stab a this one.
Radio-I'm having trouble understanding your views. You say you're a "liberal Democratic type except when it comes to financial management issues" and then you go on to praise the virtues of a government controlled market. It doesn't sound like you have thought out your view points very well at all. I'm not trying to personally attack you but, at least politically, you have made some lengthy stretches with the truth.
Here's some thoughts: Do you think the Democratic party is going to guarantee your right to keep and bear arms?
What does "liberal Democrat" mean to you?
Does the Democratic party qualify freedom by saying some people in some categories should have more than others? I'm willing to listen to your views but you gotta at least try to be consistent.
Chet

Chet
 

Arby

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Like it or not, gentlemen, I think Radio-op makes a very good point.

I think it is a quantum leap from "Democrat" to "Communist", but the terms are often used interchangeably on this board and others. And if one believes enough in the tenets of the Democratic Party to be a member, that doesn't mean he is necessarily anti-gun. And to be pro-gun doesn't mean one has to be opposed to everything the Democratic party stands for. Hell, if more gun-loving Democrats agitated within their own party to drop the harsh anti-gun line, we might see a real decline in the threat of anti-gun legislation.

Where I live, their is a long tradition of Democratic party politics, AND a strong tradition of hunting and shooting. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I have known of a lot of liberals that like guns; like to hunt an shoot. I have also known of a lot of liberals in my neck of the woods that have shown a lot of courage when it comes to standing up for what have been less than mainstream ideas in these parts, not so many years ago. Many of these people practice what they preach, and still help their neighbors a great deal. As for lawyers, I know some who do a lot of pro-bono work, and who have put their asses on the line when the going got rough. They were not weenies, pansies, commies, or anything of the sort. Some of them were, and are, damn good people. And some of them like guns.

I have seen a great divisiveness on the gun issue in recent years. People are called names, mis-attributions are made, and we are all more polarized than ever before. Each side stereotypes the other more than ever. Believe it or not, there ARE liberals who like guns, and their are many conservatives that think that bolt-guns and shotguns are fine, but no one should be able to own anything as evil as a FAL.

We will win no converts by liberal-bashing, or demonizing those who do not believe as we do about the second amendment. All we will do is alienate them. Our strident language and intolerance will make them more steadfast in their opposition to us. We need to win them over, at least in part. We believe we have history, tradition, and logic on our side, but we often sow discord when we should be seeking discourse.

I have old friends who have been so turned off by the rhetoric of pro-gun people that they have reversed themselves on the issue of firearms freedom.

How much of that can we stand, and expect to prevail in the end?
 

Sgt Rock

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(I have old friends who have been so turned off by the rhetoric of pro-gun people that they have reversed themselves on the issue of firearms freedom.

How much of that can we stand, and expect to prevail in the end?[/B][/QUOTE])

Gee and I was going to say that I have been so turned off by the rhetoric of the anti-gun media that I will always fight for our constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. Pro gun rhetoric? There was no need for pro gun rhetoric until some pin head stood up and started whining about guns. Everybody gets to have guns or nobody does. There is no middle ground.

[This message has been edited by SGT ROCK (edited November 10, 2000).]
 

RThomas

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I am neither Democrat nor Republican. Truth be told I would be a Libertarian, since they seems to be more in line with what I believe in. For the comments on uneducated poor FAL owners, I think undergraduate and graduate degrees, income that puts me in the top tax bracket, a management position at a fortune 500 company should counter that statement. I vote Republican simply because they most closely align with what I feel is important and have a hope in hell of being elected. What pisses me off the most is the affluent Democrats. Big jobs, big houses, fat IRA's and stock portfolios, then they start bleating about the poor, the uneducated, gun control, the environment, etc. They donate $100 to their favorite charity, jump in their Beemers, drive out of their gated communities-complete with armed guards, hop on a 747 and burn 50,000lbs of jet fuel on the way to Cancun to celebrate their generosity. Hypocrites one and all. Hey Bill, do you offer your legal services to the unemployed at a reduced price, or free? I am proud of what I am. I fought like hell to get here and I'll be damned if anyone is going to take any more than is absolutely neccessary away from me. Not my guns, not my income, nothing. I don't give a damn if someone is poor, it isn't my fault or my problem. People seem to forget that not everyone can be wealthy or even comfortable. Someone has to dig the ditches and sweep the floor. Do you really want to give up even a little of what you have, so someone else can have it? I don't think so. Open up your eyes. America uses more energy and wastes more raw materials than any other country in the world. Do you want to give up this life and go somewhere else? Not if you are on top, or even at the low middle. If you don't think I'm even a little correct here, then you are not living in reality. I suppose if I was a crack-head I might vote for Gore, or any other uninspired wasted person. Anyone with a grasp of reality and looking to advance their position in this world would be a fool to vote Democrat. RT

[This message has been edited by RThomas (edited November 10, 2000).]
 

FALPhil

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Geeez! What planet are you from???

"..guard his wealth at the expense of others..". Do you really believe this tripe? The operative word here is HIS. If it is truly HIS, then "he" has the right to do whatever he wants with it. Any other position assumes it is NOT HIS.

Your position abdicates all concepts of human nature, not to mention intellectual integrity. I hereby brand you a TROLL and encourage my fellow FALers not to respond to any more of your socialist drivel.

I think you spent waaayy too much time in the reeducation camp, pal. You may want to reset and start over with Francis Shaeffer.

Originally posted by Radio-op:
Mike,
Just because one is older, doesn't require that he must change his values, or guard his wealth at the expense of others.
73's
------------------
..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[This message has been edited by Phil (edited November 10, 2000).]
 

Radio-op

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Not to keep this thing going, but I guess I will since it is all too interesting. First point, I would like to interject: as one member here confirmed, there is no direct correlation between Democrat, liberal or quasi-socialist and anti gun or one who will not stand up to defend the country. My father, who I learned much of my thoughts from, like I must assume everyone else here did too, was also a very compasionate democratic/liberal type. He was also one Curtiss LeMay's original hand picked top 80 pilots in the US Army Air Force to help form the original 58th bomb wing of the 20th Air Force in WW2. These were the guys who were trained to be the first squadrons of B-29's to be sent to India, then China and on to Tinian in the south Pacific once the Marines were done taking the Islands. They performed long range, deep penetration bomb runs on southern Japanese installations throughout Indochina and southern sections of Japan until they were close enough for round trip raids from Tinian to hit direct targets in the heartland of Japan. The 58th was responsible for the total destruction of all Japanese infrastructure: ship building, rail yards, energy production, munitions manufacturing facilities, military resupply, etc. In the process, many hundreds of air crew memebers were lost or captured and executed or used for medical experiments or tortured to death. One of the B-29's my father commanded was hit by a zero, and lost it's front glass area and it's navigator. At close to 300 knots, the wind blowing through the plane caused total panic among the crew. Everyone was ready to bail out, but my father ordered them to stay with the plane, he needed the crew to fly the plane. He said they had no chance of survival in the hands of the Japs, and he promised they would make it to safe waters where a sub would pick them up. He dropped to 10,000 feet from 30,000 feet and picked up two P-51 Mustangs for escort and made it back to the mid point Islands to ditch the plane. All crew survived except the navigator who was blown apart on the interior of the plane on my father and his co-pilot. This is only one of several similar stories told to me about his war time experience. He received two distinguished flying crosses, an air medal, several unit citations and a presidential citation from FDR. He started with the 58th in 1941 and flew two tours until the end, when the 509th composite joined his unit to drop the two atomic bombs on Japan. He was one of 12 out of the original 80 hand picked pilots of the 58th to survive the war. He was a true hero as were all the men in WW2, and he was a democratic/liberal. But don't ever tell me he was a communist or traitor to the constitution of the US. And he enjoyed guns too! He took me shooting in the mountains of up state New York when I was young. Taught me how to shoot safely and taught me to respect the opinions of others. And he taught me to stand up for the country.
I remember when he was dying of cancer, he lost his mind since the cancer spread to his brain. I visited him in the hospital one day wearing his A-2 flight jacket shortly before he passed away. He started to fade back into a B-29 mission. He thought I was his Co-pilot. I guess the jacket started the whole episode. He asked me to look out the window and tell him if the bombs were away. I told yes they were. He just smiled and said he was such a tough guy. He kept laughing and telling me what a tough guy he was. With that, he asked me to bring the plane back to base, he was going to take it easy. I suppose I at least had the privilege to fly one mission in the war with him, so to speak.
You may not like his political views, but he would be there at your side to defend the country, probably more so than the average person in this country.
The second point: the more people carry on about democrats/liberals, and storming the White House with guns, the more they will legislate them out of our hands. You only scare the hell out of the average person with kind of talk. And they don't want FAL's or AR's or any other type of AW in your hands with this kind of thinking. So we will not be able to take them to the range and have some good old fun if this keeps up.
Show you are responsible and you will win them over, whether they are democrats or republicans. Either party is worried about people with military weapons ready to use them when they don't like the way things are going.
 

Rat A Tat

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Bill you must see that Clinton's team has put in place many foolish gun laws that do nothing to stop crime. Only taking away our freedom and rights a crumb at a time.

In your own words can you tell me how you can support their ways. Also in your opinion tell me who should have the right to own guns.
 

Charlie14

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1) Your father was a hero.
2) Perceptions of gunowners as responsible will have absolutely no affect upon those who consider firearms evil.
3) The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution I swore to uphold.
4) Meatheads that thump their chest about the big can of woop-ass they are going to open up are probobly the least concern that the gun grabers have to worry about, but make good fodder for the Rosie O'Donnels of the world.
 

Dano

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Radio,

Your father was a true hero. I have tremendous respect for what he did and I am thankful for people like him.

But I'm afraid that the Democratic party you speak of is not the Democratic party of today. It is no longer the party of FDR, Truman, and JFK. These men would not even be nominated by the party of today.

For example, JFK believed in a strong military, tax cuts, and was a member of the NRA. His chances getting to the top of today's Democratic party would be NIL.

I think if you look deeper, the party you so stongly defend no longer exists today. The party you remember from years past has no relationship to today's Democratic party.

It is time for good people like yourself to get involved inside the Democratic party and return it to its former self.



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A line should be drawn between [the government] and [ourselves] clearly establishing our rights. We either assert our rights, or submit and become tame and abject slaves...
-George Washington, 1765
 

chet

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Radio, again I think you have some type of popculture perception of what a "liberal Democratic" type is. "Compassionate" is not the word that comes to mind when I think of the government garnishing my wages thru taxation in order to dole it out to those it deems 'deserving'. Your posts lead me to believe that your view of conservative "right-wing" people precludes the fact that they may be compassionate. I bet that many here save a little for their favorite charity despite the government's attempt to "do it for them".
Also, as some have alluded to above, the concept of a political spectrum with a linear extreme 'right' and 'left' is greatly misunderstood and deeply flawed itself. A proper view would at least have 2 axes perpendicular to one another ( if not 3 axes ). I would put big 'R' Republicans on the right, Dems on the left, Libertarians to the north and Communists to the south. Most people can easily find out where they are on this "cross" by using the political quiz that most Libertarian websites have. Your statements are contradictory so I can't tell what you think. I do know that freedom doesn't have anything to do with how people 'feel' about others, what people 'think' about others. The great intangible thought 'FREEDOM' has everything to do with tangibles: I can KEEP my income. I can OWN my property. I can WRITE my thoughts. I can GO where I please. The only limits to these types of freedoms is that they must refer to things that are actually mine. Thus, I can't keep YOUR income. I can't own YOUR property, etc. That is what freedom is about. Not just guns, money, taxes, or any other single item, but the whole of everything. It is an ideal that makes every man his own, not partly his own. Everything about a man is his.Including the fruits of his labors and the tools of his defense. If you haven't figured it out by now, then I doubt you ever will.
Lastly, I can tell a lot about a person by what he writes. I hope others can know things about me the same way. So let me say this: I hold the memories of my family members, both living and dead, sacred. Those memories and ideals have shaped me and helped make me who I am. I do not ever speak of them to further my own meager debates. Your father lived an honorable life. He is to be revered and remembered. But, because you and him shared some political views does not make either of you right. Remember, a great many men died heroic deaths for Communist Russia (I would bet Russia has far more 'war heroes' than any other modern nation), and in formidable units such as the SS. It doesn't make their political views right or just. It just makes them heroes. Do not debase your father's heroism by attaching it to your political views. It should be enough that he lived and fought for his buddies and the family back home.
Finally, I would ask again that you present a more clear political ideal if you want to debate. Otherwise this is no fun.
Rant Over----Resume Normal Viewing
CHET
 

squid

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Originally posted by Radio-op:
It was his administration that gave the country the Boulder Dam, Social security, the interstate roadway system and all the jobs that went along with these projects for us, the average guys out there.
Hmmm, last time I took American History, the Interstate System was created during the Eisenhower (Republican) Administration.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your liberal rhetoric.

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