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NFA trusts.

Ghost

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I have 1 NFA gun, a SBR. I did it the individual rout. It was easey enough and I had no problems.
However now I think a NFA trust may be thw way to go for the future.
My reasons are:
include spouse
Brothers who are in the military and deployed like to have my build them things while they are deployed, now the want SBRs, Suppressors. I can't make or have those in my possession if they are the owner.
other brothers are now getting interested in NFA.

Can I setup a trust to include parents, brothers & spouses even if some live in another state?

what would be the best way to go about this. Any one have experience with Quicken will maker?

Thanks
 

pjpjr

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You should contact an attorney for that information......given the severity of the penalties if you are misguided by some know all on an internet forum!
Just my opinion!!
 

gunsmoke

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The TRUST must be funded for the body (posessions) of the Trust to be protedted (in any aspect) that means title must transfer in a manner prescribed by law in case of a Title II Firearm thatrequires a FORM 4.

IF FORM 4 IS IN YOUR NAME NOW YOU HAVE TO TRANSFER IT ON A FORM 4 TO THE TRUST.

a BANK ACCOUNT, CASH A CAR A PIECE OF PROPERTY DOES NOT REQUIRE A FORM 4, TITLE II FIREARM DOES.
 

Artful

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You should contact an attorney for that information......given the severity of the penalties if you are misguided by some know all on an internet forum!
Just my opinion!!
Good advice - esp. with others not being in same state.

I went LLC for last several can's so wife can go play.
 

L Haney

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This topic needs a sticky with bulletproof hard info. Lot of misinformation on the 'legal fiction' that is what a trust is comprised of. The trust needs to be built with some very specific directions and nuances to handle NFA items.

Lawyers see this as a work product and are reluctant to post up good 'boiler plates' of the verbiage required. I don't blame them at all for this. It is after all, what they do for a living.
 

DYNOMIKE

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Good advice - esp. with others not being in same state.

I went LLC for last several can's so wife can go play.
"IF" I understand correctly the potential Prob with LLC or CORP is that if/when the LLC or CORP is dissolved so must go the NFA items requiring another transfer..

I think the TRUST is the best option as one can pretty much assure (as assured as can be) that he decides what happens to the items down the road. With a TRUST I can predetermine who gets my stuff and make sure it stays in the family so to speak. With the S/O sign-off you get the item in your name but it must be transferred AGAIN later on to your heirs..

My big concern with this is the possibility of transfers being disallowed at some point putting the NFA items in limbo or worse..

This topic is of interest to me as well as I am currently debating options. It would be great if someone really knowledgeable on NFA trusts could/would chime in..
 

DABTL

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"IF" I understand correctly the potential Prob with LLC or CORP is that if/when the LLC or CORP is dissolved so must go the NFA items requiring another transfer..

I think the TRUST is the best option as one can pretty much assure (as assured as can be) that he decides what happens to the items down the road. With a TRUST I can predetermine who gets my stuff and make sure it stays in the family so to speak. With the S/O sign-off you get the item in your name but it must be transferred AGAIN later on to your heirs..

My big concern with this is the possibility of transfers being disallowed at some point putting the NFA items in limbo or worse..

This topic is of interest to me as well as I am currently debating options. It would be great if someone really knowledgeable on NFA trusts could/would chime in..
I do not trust them for the long term. There needs to be litigation in the courts to find out what may happen.

On the other hand, you have to be inventive to have things in your possession that are otherwise illegal.



 

DABTL

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I have 1 NFA gun, a SBR. I did it the individual rout. It was easey enough and I had no problems.
However now I think a NFA trust may be thw way to go for the future.
My reasons are:
include spouse
Brothers who are in the military and deployed like to have my build them things while they are deployed, now the want SBRs, Suppressors. I can't make or have those in my possession if they are the owner.
other brothers are now getting interested in NFA.

Can I setup a trust to include parents, brothers & spouses even if some live in another state?

what would be the best way to go about this. Any one have experience with Quicken will maker?

Thanks
The trust in theory owns the weapon. The trustees, 'members' of the trust are 'supposed' to be able to possess the weapon according to popular lore.

My question is unless you are the trustee, how do you get the ability to possess the weapon?????

Get your local Sheriff, Chief of Police or county Magistrate to sign off. That is the fool proof way to possess.
 

gunsmoke

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My question is unless you are the trustee, how do you get the ability to possess the weapon?????
Properly the deed of Trust should specify the specic circumstances under which the TRUSTEE delivers posession of any item or portion of the property which constitutes any portion of the corpus of the trust TO any PARTY FOR any REASON, BUT MOST PARTICULARLY THE BENEFICIARIES OF THE TRUST.

Get your local Sheriff, Chief of Police or county Magistrate to sign off. That is the fool proof way to possess.
The trust MAY but should not be used merely as a method to by-pass the cleo sign-off, and that should not be its primary purpose. If it is a purpose for establishing the trust then that purpose should NEVER be rendered null by obtaining the signoff. The reorganization of the registry has been announced and the new procedures eliminate the CLEO sign-off from the FORM 4 anyway (expected this summer) after that change occurs where will the sign-off take place that will bear any relevance to the registry??? It is very important to consult your State Constitution as some SPECIFY who the CLEO is, since the ATF Regs DO NOT, you could be running headlong into a hornets nest, by picking one (hint in LA read CONST. ART. V SEC 27)
 

aardq

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Find an attorney that specializes in NFA trusts. Not all attorneys know what or how to set up an NFA trust.

My question is unless you are the trustee, how do you get the ability to possess the weapon?
According to the attorney that set up my trust, anyone that is physically with a trustee may use the weapon, because the item is still considered in the control of the trustee. That means if you're at the range with non-trustees and go to the head, the NFA item must be locked up until you're done.

No one but a trustee may use or possess the weapon on their own.

Dan
 

DABTL

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If the trustee is the only one who may possess and anyone with the trustee may possess with the trustee's oversight, what is the difference in paying the $200 tax? None.

It is much simpler to approach your local law enforcement or Judge for an endorsement of your character.

If you do not know them, meet them. My Sheriff wants to see your concealed weapons license, check your criminal history and wants some references. Then he signs.

If, however, you want to pay a lawyer some money to do the same thing, contact me. I should just as well take your money as anyone.
 

Thorack

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Hmm,

That beater A1 has seen some miles its a shame they put that crappy Detroit weird 2/4 cycle motor in them. Send it back to FMC and get the A2 or A3 upgrades done. Hell you could probably buy the parts and do it yourself. That ain't yours is it Bill?

Thorack
 

gunsmoke

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My attorney told me that a trust is a device that allows you to distribute your possessions in the trust to your beneficiaries. That is how it must be setup. It isn't just a way to get multiple people to have NFA items. In my case, that is exactly what I wanted. Once both my wife and I are gone, the items in the NFA trust can pass to the beneficiaries. According to my attorney, they have 20 years to get it all cleaned up and transfer the items out of the trust and end it. They can either transfer to themselves, their trust, or sell for money. Trust also specifies a person to act as the administrator of the trust once the trustees are gone. It is their job to make sure NFA items are distributed as specified and according to law.

The good thing about a trust is if something did happen to me - death or disabled, then the people in the trust can handle the NFA items and take care of selling or transferring as needed. If it is just a single person owning an NFA item, then according to my attorney, no one else can touch or have access to that item until it is cleared with ATF.

For the price, I would never try to create one myself. Use an attorney who can set it up strictly for NFA items and cover your ass plus he told me that ATF is starting to reject some homegrown trusts.
True only of a TESTEMENTARY TRUST, a trust established for property distribution on death.

Not at all true of any INTER VIVOS TRUST, a TRUST like a corporation is a type of JURIDICAL PERSON (NON-NATURAL PERSON) which may in fact be established FOR ANY LEGAL PURPOSE not at all restricted to testementary purposes in any jurisdiction I am aware of.

TRUST law is complicated in the context of NFA by the fact that EVERY jurisdiction has its OWN body of written and case law on TRUSTS.

TRUSTS are an EGLISH COMMON LAW INVENTION while Louisiana and most all non-english tradition legal systems are based on CODE OF HAMMURABI, ROMAN CIVIL LAW, AND THE CODE NAPOLEON (LOUISISANAS CIVIL cODE STILL CONTAINS TEXT TODAY COPIED DIRECTLY FROM ROMAN CIVIL CODE) Most Spanish, French, Latin Speaking Countries all operate under a Civil Law Regime which governs THE OWNERSHIP OF THINGS.

Then all states and DC have their own TITLE II criminal code provisions and the Feds have the NFA and all must come together like jazz fusion like to play well together at the saame time in the same place.

Using a pre-written fit all wordprocessor trust is begging for a loss of bucks and a prison term, don't do it.

Make sure any attorney you use has extensive experiece that they can document in practicing trust law in your state AND intimate familiarity with the NFA.
 

gunsmoke

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WAY WAY TOO MUCH HERESAY AND PURE BS ENTERING THIS CONVERSATION!


GET A LAWYER LISCENSED AND PRACTICING IN YOUR STATE DEMAND REFERENCES FROM CLIENTS WHO HAVE ESTABLISHED INTER
VIVOS TRUSTS FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF PROPERTY.


QUIZ HIM EXTENSIVELY ON HIS KNOWLEDGE OF NFA STATUTES REGULATIONS AND PROCEDURES A FED STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS.

CHECK HIS REFERENCES AGAIN.

YOU ARE GOING TO DO THE TIME IN JAIL AND HAVE YOUR PROPERTY SEIZED NOT HIM

CHECK HIS HISTORY WITH HIS ERRORS AND OMMISSIONS UNDERWRITERS AND THE DISCIPLANARY COUNSEL OF THE STATE AND LOCAL BAR BEFORE GIVING HIM A NICKEL ORM 5 MINS OF YOUR TIME!
 
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fordmark3

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I started to go through the individual process but later changed to an NFA Trust after learning about all the legalities. I am military and worried about what to do with my NFA items while deployed. With a Trust, I know that my wife (trustee and beneficiary) or my father can take care of my things while I am gone and be in compliance with the law. I used an attorney that specializes in NFA trusts. I talked to several of them before deciding on the one I felt most comfortable with. I think it is a wise investment considering the amount of money involved with NFA items or even worse, violating a law.
 

gunsmoke

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I started to go through the individual process but later changed to an NFA Trust after learning about all the legalities. I am military and worried about what to do with my NFA items while deployed. With a Trust, I know that my wife (trustee and beneficiary) or my father can take care of my things while I am gone and be in compliance with the law. I used an attorney that specializes in NFA trusts. I talked to several of them before deciding on the one I felt most comfortable with. I think it is a wise investment considering the amount of money involved with NFA items or even worse, violating a law.
Don't be discouraged!

Measure three times cut once!

Done R I G H T you only have to do it once.

It can be amended if you are the GRANTOR you can amenit, Take people out put people in and take them out again. Change rules conditions for opoeratingdn name contigent trustees and beneficiaries ADD OR REMOVE GUNS ALWAYS KEEPING THE REGISTRY STRAIGHT!!!
 
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gunsmoke

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The problem, DATBL is that there are places in this country where NO SENIOR LEO will sign off on a form 4. So a trust becomes one of the better options
Opportunity for a teaching moment. The ATF may not care who signs as CLEO but in LOUISIANA Art V Sec 27 of the Constitution SPECIFIES WHO THE CLEO IS AND NOT 1 SHERIFF IN LA DOESN'T KNOW IT! AND USE IT!

Whether you like it or not the ATF REGULATORY AGENTS who run the registry are a group trained extensively to make suree NO STATE OR LOCAL LAWS ARE EVER VIOLATED BY THE APPROVAL OF ANY REGISTRY FORM - SO WHEN REVIEWING FORMS FROM A STATE THAT ADDRESSES THIS SUBJECT > THEY HONOR WHETHER YOU OR DABTL LIKE IT OR NOT AND THEY DON'T CARE IN THE LEAST FOR DABTL'S OPINION NOR DO THEY CONSULT HIM,
EVER! <


So if a LAW-specified CLEO refuses to sign any registry form by all means disregard it and show DABTL'S "OPINION" to the guys running the registry and straighten them out, please report back with video of them running for the hills!

OTHER STATES may have constitutional, statutory or regulatory provisions DEFINING WHO A CLEO IS ~ IF THEY DO ATF KNOWS IT AND HONORS IT!
 

DABTL

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Opportunity for a teaching moment. The ATF may not care who signs as CLEO but in LOUISIANA Art V Sec 27 of the Constitution SPECIFIES WHO THE CLEO IS AND NOT 1 SHERIFF IN LA DOESN'T KNOW IT! AND USE IT!

Whether you like it or not the ATF REGULATORY AGENTS who run the registry are a group trained extensively to make suree NO STATE OR LOCAL LAWS ARE EVER VIOLATED BY THE APPROVAL OF ANY REGISTRY FORM - SO WHEN REVIEWING FORMS FROM A STATE THAT ADDRESSES THIS SUBJECT > THEY HONOR WHETHER YOU OR DABTL LIKE IT OR NOT AND THEY DON'T CARE IN THE LEAST FOR DABTL'S OPINION NOR DO THEY CONSULT HIM,
EVER! <


So if a LAW-specified CLEO refuses to sign any registry form by all means disregard it and show DABTL'S "OPINION" to the guys running the registry and straighten them out, please report back with video of them running for the hills!

OTHER STATES may have constitutional, statutory or regulatory provisions DEFINING WHO A CLEO IS ~ IF THEY DO ATF KNOWS IT AND HONORS IT!
Take another Xanax and a nap.

A magistrate, Judge, of a county, sheriff or a chief of police can sign the forms in Texas. Louisiana may have some CLEO provision, it does not apply in Orleans Parrish, but magistrates there can still sign.

ATF has to honor state law on who can sign. No question of that.

Our newly elected Sheriff was adamantly against signing. Till he met my son and myself one day in connection with the local museum. He will now sign, check your background and endorsements.

On the other hand there are lawyers who undoubtedly practice only Second Amendment Law and are super experts who will willingly draw up a really good trust for only a few thousand bucks.
 

aardq

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Ah ha, DABTL is giving us a preview of what he may charge clients. The Mi attorney that drew up my NFA trust charges $400, which I think is a fair price for his specialized knowledge and skills.

As has been stated above, the best reason for the trust is the survivor issue. Your next of kin will have enough to deal with after a your death, they won't need the added ATF BS and all the hoops that they have to jump through to legally dispose of the NFA items.

And since they aren't the owners, they can't even legally handle the items to show to a prospective buyer. It's a sight unseen sale. Probably have to just sell to the nearest Class 3 just to be rid of the items. And you can guess just how fairly the class 3 will deal with them under these circumstances. To me, that alone is worth the extra few dollars.

Dan
 

DABTL

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Ah ha, DABTL is giving us a preview of what he may charge clients. The Mi attorney that drew up my NFA trust charges $400, which I think is a fair price for his specialized knowledge and skills.

As has been stated above, the best reason for the trust is the survivor issue. Your next of kin will have enough to deal with after a your death, they won't need the added ATF BS and all the hoops that they have to jump through to legally dispose of the NFA items.

And since they aren't the owners, they can't even legally handle the items to show to a prospective buyer. It's a sight unseen sale. Probably have to just sell to the nearest Class 3 just to be rid of the items. And you can guess just how fairly the class 3 will deal with them under these circumstances. To me, that alone is worth the extra few dollars.

Dan
I think you do not know how trusts work.
 

gunsmoke

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A magistrate, Judge, of a county, sheriff or a chief of police can sign the forms in Texas. Louisiana may have some CLEO provision, it does not apply in Orleans Parrish, but magistrates there can still sign.

ATF has to honor state law on who can sign. No question of that.
DABTL CHOKE AND DIE, SHUT UP, OR JUST GO AWAY ABOVE ALL STOP SPEADING BAD INFORMATION

fIRST OFF the different Constitutional Provision that applies only to Orleans Parish existed because in the Constitution of 1896 New Orleans duplicated offices like mammy on her back be ing ridden like a brood mare, they did it for the sole purpose of CREATING A HUGE GOVERNMENT PATRONAGE ENGINE and it gave Orleans Parish since it was the only CITY/PARISH in the State TWO SHERIFFS one Criminal and one Civl.

In the 1974 Constitution which is current that system was preserved and firmly ensconced to protect the political powers that were at the time.

You failed to read the amendments and case law since! WHAT A LEGAL GENIUS!

That Orleans Parish Provision has been amended and now Orleans Parish has only one (1) Sheriff. THE PROVISION YOU CITE IS WITHOUT FORCE OR EFFECT.

Long before that amendment a little bunch of folks in black robes in a big building down on Loyola Ave in New Orleans called the LOUISIANA SUPREME COURT in several related and unrelated cases ruled that in Louisiana NO JUDGE or MAGISTRATE was ANY KIND OF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER and HAD NO POWER OR PRIVILEGES LOUISIANA CONVEYS THERETO. Since those descisions the Legislature has acted to allow Judges and Magistrates to carry concealed weapons whenever they are acting in their official capacity which was the major part of the issue although judicial immunity and the State assuming all civil liability for the actions of a judge or magistrate was the driving force behind those cases. The Judges and Magistrates in Louisiana accepted the compromise, kept their judicial immunity, their homeowners insurance companies and other liability underwriters breathed a sigh of relief and almost all of them are strapped now 24/7.

IF ANY ATF REGULATORY AGENT GRANTS APPROVAL TO A FORM 4 FROM LOUISIANA SIGNED BY ANY MAGISTRATE THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND WILL HAVE HELL TO PAY IF ANY ONE OF THE 63 LOUISIANA SHERIFFS FINDS OUT ABOUT IT.

Regardless of which Parish that Sheriff serves, they will ALL standby and watch while ATF ENFORCEMENT AGENTS physically retrieve that form 4 and any firearms covered by it, IDIOT!

AS FAR AS THE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS you would charge the going rate for a simple basic NFA trust here in Louisiana is concerned the basic cost begins at about $600. If you start to get into requiring 3 or 4 co-trusttees or contingent trustees, extensive rules and conditions for use or more than one generation of testementary settlement, then of course the sky is the limit in order for the Trust Attorney to meet your needs.

The only advice you should find here folks is to find an experienced trust lawyer licsensed and practicing in your state that can and is willing to provide you with references that you can verify that prove their competence with constructing NFA Trusts. Lawyers are no different than any other professional, their services ARE negotiable and remember if you do it R I G H T the first time, you'll only have to do it once. IT IS ONLY LOGICAL THAT THE BEST MOST EXPERIENCED TRUST LAWYERS ARE GOING TO BE MORE PRICY AND IN MOST CASES YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

(like when someone knows of your interest in firearms and asks for your advice on house gun for their Mrs., and you suggest a Bulldog Pug or 20 Rem 1100 with a short barrell and tell them what its going to coast, and then they respond with "IS YOU NUTS FOOL? ALL I WANT IS SUMPIN FOR $35-$40 LIKE A .25 AUTO SHE CAN SCARE SOMEBODY OFF WITH!" That actually happened to me 32 yrs ago. 30 years ago that Mrs. was abducted raped and murdered walking to her car after work, her assailaint has never been found. If her Mr. had taken my advice the assailaint might have been found dead on the ground? But, we'll never know!)

WHATEVER YOU DO UNLESS YOU WANT TO END UP BROKE AND INCARCERATED, DON'T LOOK TO DABTL FOR A LEGAL OPINION ON ANYTHING!
I PROMISE YOU, ATF DOESN'T! XANAX HUH? ALWAYS HAD YOU FIGURED FOR A BURNED OUT DRUGGIE!



:rolleyes:
 

gunsmoke

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Ah ha, DABTL is giving us a preview of what he may charge clients. The Mi attorney that drew up my NFA trust charges $400, which I think is a fair price for his specialized knowledge and skills.

As has been stated above, the best reason for the trust is the survivor issue. Your next of kin will have enough to deal with after a your death, they won't need the added ATF BS and all the hoops that they have to jump through to legally dispose of the NFA items.

And since they aren't the owners, they can't even legally handle the items to show to a prospective buyer. It's a sight unseen sale. Probably have to just sell to the nearest Class 3 just to be rid of the items. And you can guess just how fairly the class 3 will deal with them under these circumstances. To me, that alone is worth the extra few dollars.

Dan



DAN,

If the disposition issue is your primary concern then you are correct. And I must congratulate you first on dealing with the disposition issue ahead of time with a Trust and not leaving your heir(s) to roam in the woods alone. PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO INSTRUCT THE TRUSTEE OF THE CURRENT VALUE OF YOUR PIECES IN THE TRUST AND THE PRICE RANGE THEY SHOULD BE EXPECTING TO GET, AN ANNUALLY UPDATED LETTER FROM YOU, THE GRANTOR would help the trustee handle the burden they have accepted by agreeing to be trustee the same goes for any contigent trustee in case you have named yourself as the sole trustee.

If you are the sole trustee you MAY want to talk with that attorney about amending the TRUST to add a contigent trustee in the event of your demise or incapacitation, to complete the disposition in an orderly and fair manner.


I also congratulate you on finding an attorney who will do the work for that price, it is very fair.

All in all I think you are on a good sound track, takin care of business.

:bow:​

Trusts are amazing and versitile instruments and in REAL LIFE are only limited by your imagination and the body of relevant law both legislated and case law in your jurisdiction.

BEST OF LUCK TO YOU, and always remember "I THINK, AND THERFORE I BLAST!"

(I'm getting a hint that DABTL's mother, assuming he had one, was frightened by a TRUST while she was pregnant with him, or maybe he got burned by a trust, or the grantor of a trust he wrote? Once bitten twice shy!)
 

DABTL

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DAN,


(I'm getting a hint that DABTL's mother, assuming he had one, was frightened by a TRUST while she was pregnant with him, or maybe he got burned by a trust, or the grantor of a trust he wrote? Once bitten twice shy!)

I am assuming that you are now relaxed with another Xanax. You have no clue about what a trust is or does.

At any rate, you guys just follow along with this nonsense, until one day real life comes around and the $400 lawyer deal blows up in your face. Then you can sit around and ponder why you were that dumb.
 
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