M1A Issue... Magazines Falling Out on Recoil... WTF?

[Stranger]

This 1980 series Springfield M1A has some interesting issues that I am having trouble addressing. M1A/M14s are not my thing and I need help from the hive mind. My search-fu is weak and I haven't found an answer that fixes the issue.

Magazines randomly fall out on recoil. Sometimes the first round. Sometimes the fifth. I initially diagnosed the problem as a bubba'ed mag release. When I came into possession, someone ha removed most of the mag catch's front face. So, I replaced it with a new "mil-spec" release.

Went to the range last weekend assuming I fixed it... and it did it again.

It came with a dozen no-mark mags that I assume are Asian contract. Also came with two CMI stainless parade mags as well (SHINY!). All but three of the Asian mags drop out before I get through 5 rounds of a loaded magazines. I wish I could blame out-of-spec magazines, but both the CMI fall free as well.

I started playing with magazines and noted that they can be relatively easily dislodged by simply hitting the palm of my hand against the bottom rear of a seated magazine. All but the three "drop-free" magazines behave this way.

I was reading that a worn spring guide rod and/or a weak op spring can allow this to happen. However, I don't want to just start throwing parts at it. The guide rod doesn't appear to be worn or bubba'ed. The rifle seems to function just fine. Recoil is a little more stout than an FAL, but otherwise seems to function fine (when it retains a magazine.)

Anyone know what might be ailing this M1A?

BTW, as an FAL aficionado I question the intelligence of using the spring guide rod as the front mag catch. Seems... prone to misbehave. The only way the front mag catch on an FAL can move out of the way is for the receiver to stretch.

 

[ArtBanks]

First thing I would do is put in new operating spring and spring guide. This has fixed 99% of the problem you are indicating.

 

[Stranger]

First thing I would do is put in new operating spring and spring guide. This has fixed 99% of the problem you are indicating.

Are the Sadlak rod/guides and Tubb springs any good?

 

[ArtBanks]

Are the Sadlak rod/guides and Tubb springs any good?

I like the SADLAK guides. Wouldn't know about Tubb springs. I try to get hold of USGI springs if I can, or whatever LRB has on their estore.

 

[ByronF]

That spring is a consumable item. They'll last a good long time but not forever.

 

[ArtBanks]

That spring is a consumable item. They'll last a good long time but not forever.

Under normal operation the rule of thumb is 2K rnds or at a point when the length is less than 14.75. Time to replace.

 

[Stranger]

Thank you everyone for your input. Springs and spring guide rod inbound.

Why would some magazines behave this way, while others do not? There is no discernable difference in the mags with regard to specs.

With regard to determining when to replace a spring, how could a user determine that BEFORE it becomes as issue?

Right now, its pretty easy to use a finger to push the guide rod forward. In fact, I can pretty much shove magazines straight in as opposed to rock-n-lock.

I suppose I will be able to observe the spring tension difference when the new spring comes in.

 

[ArtBanks]

If the spring length is down to under 14.75 it's done in. I just checked a bunch of new springs and they run from 15.25 to just over 16".

 

[Stranger]

If the spring length is down to under 14.75 it's done in. I just checked a bunch of new springs and they run from 15.25 to just over 16".

Mine is 15.25" inches. I will see that the new spring measures.

Signs are pointing to a weak recoil spring. I remembered that I was using South African surplus which is lower pressure than NATO spec and 308 Win. Even with weaker loads the rifle is slinging brass a significant distance and denting every case about midway up the case wall.

 

[ByronF]

I'll speculate that combination of action spring and mag spring tension may explain why some mags fall out and others dont. As one element of a system weakens a defect will manifest itself differently according other system characteristics. As your main spring weakens the mag drop problem will reveal itself first on the mags with weakest tension. Run it long enough and it may start dropping other mags.

I treating experiment would be to swap mags springs and see if the fault follow a the spring, or stays with the mag body. Regardless, change the main spring. And maybe change the mag springs on the mags that self ejected.

 

[Stranger]

No joy.

I replaced the spring ( length new was 15.75") and the spring guide rod, but it is behaving the same way. Same mags come out when smacked from the rear. Same three mags remain engaged.

I was looking at the difference between the mags that stay and the ones that pop out and I noticed that the release shelf has very different engagement characteristics. The mags that fall out can be "pushed" forward to the point that there is just a tiny amount of the magazine lug engaging the release. Just a little more force on the magazine and it overrides the mag catch. On the mags that stay put, the lug still has half of its width engaged by the release.

I checked the overall width on the magazines and they are all (working and non-working) 3.07X inches long.

Not sure why some mags go farther forward than others.

Byron, I was thinking about your mag spring comment last night. How is mag spring strength going to affect magazine seating? If I take the springs out the magazines behave exactly the same way (except for the bolt hold open doesn't engage).

 

[W.E.G.]

Your mags are shit.

All of them.

Get one of these magazines.

Its fucking expensive

Magazine, 20 Round, Original USGI, Like New, M14 / M1A

*Click On More Info For Magazine Restrictions

www.fulton-armory.com

 

[W.E.G.]

This magazine is probably good too.

Less fucking expensive.

But still fucking expensive.

Magazine, 20 Round, Check-Mate, USGI Issue, M14 / M1A

*Click On More Info For Magazine Restrictions

www.fulton-armory.com

 

[Stranger]

This magazine is probably good too.

Less fucking expensive.

But still fucking expensive.

Magazine, 20 Round, Check-Mate, USGI Issue, M14 / M1A

*Click On More Info For Magazine Restrictions

www.fulton-armory.com

That's the problem. The Check-Mate mags are doing the same thing.

I am happy to ditch the no-name mags, but "high quality" expensive mags are doing the same thing. Hence, me trying to finger out what is up with this rifle.

Maybe I stumbled into a couple out-of-spec CMI mags?

 

[1feral1]

I have a SA Inc ser 41xxx range pre-ban, and does the same thing, 4 of my 6 GI mags do this. Replaced recoil spring and guide, still an issue.

 

[ArtBanks]

Ok. Next item would be to check the trigger group mag lock protrusion. Should measure at least 1/16" under good spring tension. Could be something as simple at the trigger housing not finished enough to allow the mag lock to function properly. Or even weak spring or bad machining on the mag lock it self. Without careful examination, it's really difficult to diagnose the problem. If your trigger guard lockup is loose, all bets are off. That could be related to a stock problem. Whatta Hobby!

 

[hardass]

Years ago I got some very early production un-marked CMI mags that wouldn't lock. The rear catch sat just a few thou's lower then ones that worked. Carefully filled down and trial fitted until they did. They still require a hard smack to lock.
btw...all CMI mags ( early un-marked and marked CMI ) have a horizontal line above the bottom 2 spot welds on the rear plate

 

[W.E.G.]

That's the problem. The Check-Mate mags are doing the same thing.

I am happy to ditch the no-name mags, but "high quality" expensive mags are doing the same thing. Hence, me trying to finger out what is up with this rifle.

Maybe I stumbled into a couple out-of-spec CMI mags?

Look, it’s gotta be one of four things.
1. Out of spec receiver
2. Out of spec front-fang, or whatever we’re supposed to call the fang-thing that engages the hole in the front rib of the magazine
3. Out of spec magazine catch that engages the humpy-plate on the back rib of the magazine
4. Shit magazines

 

[W.E.G.]

And 5 too I suppose: If the trigger group is flopping around, the magazines won’t stay in.

I would have figured that would be patently obvious, were that the case. I mean, if the whole trigger group moves when you insert a magazine, and you are having magazine problems, and you’re only just now noticing it…

By contrast, you wouldn’t necessarily know the magazines are shit unless you had a non-shit magazine to compare.

 

[Stranger]

Look, it’s gotta be one of four things.
1. Out of spec receiver
2. Out of spec front-fang, or whatever we’re supposed to call the fang-thing that engages the hole in the front rib of the magazine
3. Out of spec magazine catch that engages the humpy-plate on the back rib of the magazine
4. Shit magazines
5. too I suppose: If the trigger group is flopping around, the magazines won’t stay in.

1. No idea how to check that. I remember certain alumabomb FAL receivers would stretch and drop mags. I don't think this is aluminum...
2. Maybe, but now we are up to two out of spec front hanger fangs... unlucky.
3. I have swapped out the rear mag release twice with a new USGI and a Sadlak... maybe I am supremely unlucky.
4. Maybe, and two CMI fall into the shit category... again unlucky.
5. Trigger group is rock solid. Receiver engagement swingers/claws show little or no wear. I checked that over carefully wondering if it might be the issue.

A buddy of mine with an M1A has agreed to let me stick mine in his while he sticks his in mine.

Never fingered having an M1A would drop me into a swingers club... is that unlucky or lucky?

 

[Stranger]

Ok. Next item would be to check the trigger group mag lock protrusion. Should measure at least 1/16" under good spring tension. Could be something as simple at the trigger housing not finished enough to allow the mag lock to function properly. Or even weak spring or bad machining on the mag lock it self. Without careful examination, it's really difficult to diagnose the problem. If your trigger guard lockup is loose, all bets are off. That could be related to a stock problem. Whatta Hobby!


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I just swapped out another new magazine release last night trying to make it work. I will measure mine tonight.

It looks like yours sticks out farther than mine...

And here we are comparing how far our doohickeys stick out.

 

[TerryN]

Try the trigger mech from your buddy's rifle in yours, and see if that makes a difference. The good news is that your Springfield M1A has a lifetime warranty (lifetime of the rifle, not the original owner). You can always contact Springfield and ask for a shipping label.

 

[ArtBanks]

I just swapped out another new magazine release last night trying to make it work. I will measure mine tonight.

It looks like yours sticks out farther than mine...

And here we are comparing how far our doohickeys stick out.

Very possible the trigger housing may need to be relieved under the bottom where the mag catch handle sets in order to allow the top to come out far enough. The height of the stock top to where the trigger pads set is also critical. Have seen stock that work fine in the summer with humidity and shrink in the Winter and troubles happen.

 

[Stranger]

Very possible the trigger housing may need to be relieved under the bottom where the mag catch handle sets in order to allow the top to come out far enough. The height of the stock top to where the trigger pads set is also critical. Have seen stock that work fine in the summer with humidity and shrink in the Winter and troubles happen.

Ah, yes. My M1A naivety comes out. What are trigger pads and where do they set? Are those the horizontal metal bits that butt up against the bottom of the stock?

It definitely shrinks in the cold. Maybe that's why the wife likes to keep the bedroom so warm.

 

[ArtBanks]

Ah, yes. My M1A naivety comes out. What are trigger pads and where do they set? Are those the horizontal metal bits that butt up against the bottom of the stock?

It definitely shrinks in the cold. Maybe that's why the wife likes to keep the bedroom so warm.

Yep, that's the little buggers that can cause all sorts of problems including poor accuracy and many function problems if they are not tight. Trigger guards should take a good slap with the heel of the hand to get them to close. Most of my most accurate M14s take a good belt with a rubber mallet to lock up the trigger guard.